How to Build A Global Network | The Horizon Podcast
EP 06 | How to Build a Global Network
In this episode, host Ben Bradford is joined by Karl Farrow, founder of CeraPhi and Geothermal Energy Development Company, to discuss creating global supply chains and how to become a globally recognised expert in your field.
Whether you are looking to grow your export potential, diversify your supply chain or have ambitions to grow either your own or your businesses profile, Karl divulges the life-experience and tips to help you.
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Transcript
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Horizon podcast where we continue to bring you fantastic insight from industry specialists and experts who can help you to grow your international trade as well as the insights and real life experiences from business people who have successfully traded across the globe.
Speaker A:Today I'm joined by an individual who as a businessman has not only traded and traveled across the world with work, but has been involved in supply chains that have touched every corner of the globe.
Speaker A:And today we'll dive into how he not only created these international connections, but nurtured them to help him become one of geothermal industries leading voices.
Speaker A:Enjoy the show.
Speaker A:Hello, I'm Ben and thank you for joining us today for what I'm sure will be another fantastic conversation as we delve into the vast experience of today's special guest.
Speaker A:I'm delighted to be joined by Carl Farrow who among plenty of other roles is the founder of Geothermal Energy Development company and serifi.
Speaker A:In a career covering more than four decades, Carl has worked across Europe, East Asia, America and Mexico and has a wealth of experience and knowledge in market strategies and, and building strong international networks to deliver both services and products.
Speaker A:Thank you very much for joining me this morning.
Speaker A:Carl, how are you doing?
Speaker B:Very well.
Speaker B:Ben, thanks very much for having me on.
Speaker A:No, not at all.
Speaker A:And thank you very much for agreeing to be on and join us today.
Speaker A:It's always great to get someone who's done it all in the way that you have.
Speaker B:Thanks folks.
Speaker A:So I'll dive kind of right in then.
Speaker A:And to be honest, first question builds a little bit on, on what mentioned there in that you have worked across the globe in different countries and, and you've built those connections in, in these different countries as well.
Speaker A:And there's people and there's, there's businesses out there who, to be honest, they're struggling to do that, struggling to do that with just one market or one country and, and would love to have that strong connection that you've managed to, to build up but, but, or don't really know where to start and how to go about it.
Speaker A:So I suppose kind of going back to the beginning of, of your experiences, how did you kind of get your foot in the door almost?
Speaker A:How did you start building those connections?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think, I mean, I think there's a couple of sort of different ways to look at this.
Speaker B:You know, timing, opportunity is obviously key.
Speaker B:You know, the stage in your life when you're doing it or the stage of a business when you're, when you're doing it.
Speaker B:Fortunately, I left the UK fairly young.
Speaker B:I sort of started working overseas quite young through effectively within an apprenticeship, but also more or less after that, straight away I was working overseas in the trade I was in as a sort of mechanical fabricator and in the oil and gas industry.
Speaker B:And that took me into mostly Europe initially in some parts of the US and sort of Houston and Louisiana early on.
Speaker B:But I think the appetite to move overseas was really for me about, you know, opportunity.
Speaker B:And I would say the first sort of drive for me was really, you know, the turning point was sort of just, just before the millennium.
Speaker B:I really decided the oil and gas industry was sort of like coming on and up to a certain extent, after being in a down for quite a long while.
Speaker B:And because of that down, I'd been involved with a number of larger projects overseas.
Speaker B:So I had an opportunity through the early 90s to sort of work on a few projects in northern Spain, sort of first generation FPSOs, etc.
Speaker B:And I just, I, I knew that there was, you know, a boom coming, decided I just wanted to do something different.
Speaker B:So I packed my wife and kids in a Fiat Punto and drove down to safer Spain and sort of rocked up in, in, in, in the contacts or a friend, some area that I knew down there.
Speaker B:And really that's where I started my first business.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, that was, I would say a bit pro, you know, or reactive response.
Speaker B:But also I knew that there was an opportunity there based around the shipyards and based around the fabrication yards that were down in that area.
Speaker B:And that's really, I then spent a sort of focused target point on them areas to actually try and develop business.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, what I'd learned previously by working abroad is that, you know, I had fortunately learned some Spanish.
Speaker B:You know, that's key.
Speaker B:You've got to, you know, try and speak and understand the dialect that's being used in that country.
Speaker B:It's very easy, you know, if it's an English speaking region, but then you still got to, you know, understand the culture.
Speaker B:But I think, you know, for me it was really about, I knew there was an opportunity.
Speaker B:I felt confident enough that I had a little bit of language skills in there.
Speaker B:I'd already, you know, understood a bit of the market from working on a few projects there and decided to really take a dive into that market knowing that there was a potential huge explosion of work going to happen down in that region.
Speaker B:So that was the initial sort of driver and it varies from different types of companies and people, but I'M sure you've got other questions.
Speaker A:Well, I suppose building on that one, I suppose some people would say kind of picking up the whole family, sticking them in the car and going down there.
Speaker A:That's, that's the extreme of one way of doing it.
Speaker A:But I know from you touched on it and speaking to people kind of previously, how there is no substitute for actually putting your feet on the ground in whatever market it is, doesn't matter which market you're trying to break into.
Speaker A:And maybe people have lost that a little bit since COVID and after Covid, but I presume for you that's still exactly the case that, yeah, zoom teams that can go so far, but you've got to put your feet on the ground.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it's like everything, you know, whether it's setting up a business, expanding a business, growing a business in, even in the domestic market, you know, it comes with the sacrifice.
Speaker B:That sacrifice, to a certain extent can be chucking your kids and the wife in a car and driving to another country, or it can be dedicating significant amount of time and resources to actually develop a Pacific market.
Speaker B:And I think that's, that's what a lot of companies I think underestimate is the, you know, just because something sells good in your market or you're a leader in the field in your market, so you're going to be the leader in the field in another market overseas without putting in the same work and effort that you've already done where you are.
Speaker B:So I sort of look at it, it's like, you know, you're climbing different mountains, different doing the same thing, but you still got to climb that mountain to get to where you want to get to in a Pacific market.
Speaker B:It's, it's not easy.
Speaker B:And I, I look at it as sort of three key areas.
Speaker B:You've got a, you know, there's a sacrifice bit with the time and an opportunity you've then got, you know, the localization.
Speaker B:You've got to understand that market, understand the business culture in that market and effectively become local, you know, become very localized, sort of needed sort of resource in that, in that market.
Speaker B:There's no good going over to a place, you know, that is a.
Speaker B:Is a world leader in manufacturing wells, valves and selling, trying to sell valves.
Speaker B:You know, it's not, it's not going to work out well from a business point of view, but I've seen it happen and I've seen companies try to do that and, you know, with disastrous results, obviously.
Speaker B:But I think you Also got to, you know, when I was doing this back, you know, 25 years ago now, when I first jumped in the car and set up my first business, you know, that we didn't have Internet, we didn't have all the tools that are there that you've got today.
Speaker B:I think in a big advantage, you know, the world's changed very positively through the likes of, you know, incidents like Covid.
Speaker B:And we, you know, we can, you know, people are used to talking online now and talking over, you know, various different medias and you have lots of tools at your disposal now to do a lot of upfront DD and sort of due diligence on market entry and market factors that weren't around when I sort of first kicked off.
Speaker B:So you had to be in that local environment really to understand it and work with it.
Speaker B:Whereas today I don't think you necessarily have to be there in the front end, but feet on the ground is also required.
Speaker B:But I'd say the key to all this is actually making sure that you become or you are confident enough to be, I would say the sort of key person of influence or leader in the field you're going into or trying to go into and bring in a differentiated to that market that somebody wants.
Speaker B:And I always look at it like, you know, be seen to be the person that's giving rather than asking.
Speaker B:And you know, if you're, if you're, if you're in the region, you're solving problems and taking solutions to that region that, you know, needs, needs them, solutions, you know, you're going to get far more listened to than, you know, you know, somebody going with, selling the thing that is already there.
Speaker B:So I think it's about picking the right, the right, you know, market about picking the right opportunity and also being, you know, sacrificing and putting yourself into that space to become the, you know, that, that influential person in that region.
Speaker A:You touched on a couple of bits there about what maybe some businesses have failed to appreciate or haven't done quite so well in.
Speaker A:You know, when you're saying kind of trying to sell valves to, to a country that's a world leader in that as one of your roles.
Speaker A:When I think you working in, in Mexico, wasn't it, you kind of took a bit of a different role, I suppose to describe it as a bit of like a conduit between businesses who wanted to break into Mexico and then whether it's the relevant government body office, whoever it may be.
Speaker A:So I suppose that put you kind of in a bit more of a unique position, that it wasn't subjective bias.
Speaker A:Your business that you're trying to sell.
Speaker A:You could objectively look at these other businesses that were trying to approach the market.
Speaker A:And I imagine with that you saw some businesses do that very well and some businesses kind of not.
Speaker A:Not do that quite as well.
Speaker A:So I suppose lean into that experience that you had.
Speaker A:What, what tips or what kind of have you seen where you've gone?
Speaker A:You know what, actually this is what someone did that made them really hot, ready to go into Mexico as the example here.
Speaker A:And some other things that other businesses did were that actually weren't quite as successful or good.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that, I mean, generally the smaller dynamic companies tend to be a lot more flexible to work and adapt to, you know, overseas environments or new environments than larger.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Corporations.
Speaker B:I think that, you know, the uniqueness of the Mexico situation, I mean, I went there with a completely different remit of what I ended up doing.
Speaker B:You know, what.
Speaker B:That sort of was something that just happened because I'd previously, my previous company had been working in Mexico with the national oil company and had quite a lot of work there.
Speaker B:And we were, we were quite, I was quite well known anyway in Mexico through the national oil company.
Speaker B:But at a time when I moved there, the country itself was going through an energy reform with the new government.
Speaker B:And fortunately a lot of the people I would previously work with, probably a decade before, were moving into sort of senior political roles in different areas and different organizations that were all part of this restructuring.
Speaker B:So before it was just a state owned oil company and the government and you know, that was it.
Speaker B:But now they were obviously opening the market up for international suppliers, international, you know, bidding rounds for licensing of oil fields and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker B:So they had to create a regulator, had to create, you know, a hydrocarbons commission, had to create all these different things that weren't there before.
Speaker B:So I got sort of tied up in all that sort of effectively unknowingly initially.
Speaker B:And of course I developed.
Speaker B:So when, when the, when the first sort of contract started to be issued, you know, I just had the knowledge.
Speaker B:I was, I'd already gone through a few years of knowledge and understanding and working for all different types of contracting models and helping the government set this up.
Speaker B:So I was just being naturally being pushed by government to speak to, you know, companies to help them, you know, work through these processes.
Speaker B:And what I learned out of that really is that the larger companies struggled significantly with trying to adapt to models of procurement and models of structure of payments and stuff like that.
Speaker B:Quite, quite a lot.
Speaker B:So that was something again, I was working very closely with the Department of International Trade which was then the UK Trade investment.
Speaker B:We started to work a lot with the British Chamber out there to try and how can we influence and try and structure and work more with standardization frameworks that were generally used in the UK bid and rans like logic and tendering frameworks that are already there crying and others.
Speaker B:But so sort of effectively speaking the language that these companies were already understood and not trying to create some, some sort of localized structure because one thing we did or I did sort of like, you know, establish was that, you know, Mexico for 78 years was a privately run oil and gas industry.
Speaker B:And the services and businesses that were operating in Mexico were pretty well geared up to manage oil and gas.
Speaker B:It wasn't like it was a new industry as such.
Speaker B:But what they hadn't done is had all that deep water experience offshore, you know, subsea.
Speaker B:All the things that were developed around the world had been very much predominantly onshore and a few offshore big fields.
Speaker B:But so the transition was really in, you know, that expertise of offshore license and drilling contracts and all around that area.
Speaker B:And a lot of the, the challenges we found or I found was really around expectations.
Speaker B:People thinking that for a start that the bidding dates in the process were going to actually happen on the dates they said they were and things like this and getting upset because they slipped by six months or things like this.
Speaker B:But you've got to realize you're going into these environments where time, it has no relevance.
Speaker B:It's a process and if they say six, it's going to be 12 or 18 even.
Speaker B:And you've got to be prepared for them expectations and prepared for that.
Speaker B:And it is a waiting game.
Speaker B:If you're not prepared to sit and wait and develop and sit and go with the process, there's very little chance of pushing it on.
Speaker B:You've got to sort of just roll with the punches.
Speaker B:You've got to have resources and commitment for the long term.
Speaker B:It's not a good idea just to look at one project.
Speaker B:You've got to look at it as a, we want to set up in that, in that country to be a player and, and not just looking at it to you know, look at a pacific contract or win a pacific scope of work because the work and effort in for the chances of probably winning is going to be significant.
Speaker B:And so yeah, I mean a lot of the stuff we, I was doing is really, you know, being quite brutal with some of the companies and just saying, you know, you're not going to win this and unless you really want to be here for the long term, you're going to waste your resources and money and you know, the advice would be to walk away, you know, and some of them, you know, didn't take that advice and carried on and you know, regardless.
Speaker B:But you know, for me it's about, you know, my sort of code of ethics is about performing and delivering and you know, not spending time on fail on things that are likely to fail but looking at fail fast, you know, mentality where you, you know, where you know you're potentially going to end up and potentially could, could take something to a successful conclusion.
Speaker A:So can you.
Speaker A:Picking that apart a little bit, can I get the, the idea that a.
Speaker A:Businesses need to appreciate and realize that it's not going to be an overnight quick kind of quick fix and that's kind of the same trying to get into any market but also that there's some things that are in business's control and there's some things that aren't and they can't force those things.
Speaker A:Whether it's waiting for tenders and bids to come out, whether it's, you know, kind of waiting for decisions by potential big customers overseas or anything like that, there's certain kind of things you can push and then situations where you've got to kind of appreciate that it's a long, it's a long process and you're not going to get kind of a quick win out of it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean there's two different approaches to most of these sort of developer markers.
Speaker B:I've seen it in Safe East Asia.
Speaker B:Middle east is very similar.
Speaker B:If you're going into a market, like I said, selling a product that is already there, it's going to be an uphill push finish.
Speaker B:If you're taking something which has got a usp, some patent, some you know, technical advantage, that's obviously easy really to do that.
Speaker B:You'll, you know, invariably you'll need a local partner to try and deliver that.
Speaker B:So sort of some of the, the areas I was facilitating is really, you know, finding that, matchmaking, finding them local, finding the, the, the, the, you know, the, the sort of key person of influencers locally to the sort of the, the project Ellen, to be able to push it in because then you've got an internal, I mean I, I remember, you know, the amount of people used to say to me when I was living in Spain and Mexico, you know, well, you're, you're like a Native now but I never ever felt like a native ever.
Speaker B:You know, I was always the, the gringo or the, the foreigner.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter how good a Spanish you speak, whether chicken, whether you, you know, live there and have 10 children of the same culture.
Speaker B:You're still a Brit and an expat at the end of the day.
Speaker B:So what you have to do is remember that from the beginning.
Speaker B:And it's about knowing where your skill sets end and where the local skill sets begin to be able to then carry on that relationship.
Speaker B:And you also have to sort of go in there with a vision that in the future you might be kite this might be a short term play.
Speaker B:Short term being 5, 10 years or something like that.
Speaker B:And the local sector at some point will inevitably probably take over and cut you out.
Speaker B:That's a fairly high chance of that happening.
Speaker B:So you've got to go in there with these sorts of things in mind as well and look at a bit create a business plan that is structured on a sort of, I would say a two to three year market entry strategy with a five to seven year sort of recuperate art revenue and if it goes long that great, you know, you know that's where, that's where I would sort of say, you know it's, it's, it's all down to product and services are easy to copy.
Speaker B:Product if it's patent and got USP is a lot harder but then product also is going to be limited with license and USP and everything else around that.
Speaker B:So you only have a certain period of time with like agreements and stuff like this.
Speaker B:So yeah, they've all got their ups and downs.
Speaker B:You know, services you can win quick.
Speaker B:Products tend to get, you know, especially new technology takes longer to get into sectors and markets.
Speaker B:I think one thing I have learned over the Last sort of 20 years is that actually overseas territories is probably a lot easier to test new products than Europe and uk.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, so if you have got a.
Speaker B:Specifically in the offshore industry, you know, our offshore Industry is a 10 to 15 year integration process generally for new technology.
Speaker B:You know there are some that get in earlier but invariably it's quite a long game.
Speaker B:Especially anything to do with drilling or wells or subsurface.
Speaker B:You know, it's a fairly long game.
Speaker B:But even renewables, I mean we're seeing even that now with geothermal and others.
Speaker B:It's a, it's not a quick process.
Speaker B:You, you know, you might have a silver bullet or think you have, but the end of the day, you know everyone's screaming climate crisis and change and everything else.
Speaker B:But it's all down to money.
Speaker B:It's all down to, you know, political drivers at the end of the day.
Speaker B:And it takes time.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:So I hope you don't mind me saying, but I would say that you yourself, you know, you, you kind of an industry voice, a lead in, in kind of in the geothermal energy area, especially at the moment, there's a lot of businesses and individuals as well out there who want to get to that level, whether that's kind of based on their own knowledge and experience or the quality of the product or service that they provide.
Speaker A:And obviously there's no quick fix, there's not nothing that can be done kind of overnight to get you to that level.
Speaker A:But what tips would you have for, for anyone who, who is trying to become that recognized voice within their field?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, obviously you, you know, you've got to be confident enough to talk about, you know, the, the challenges, confident enough to talk about the successes and, and, and be, you know, fairly, I mean I'm fairly straightforward and, and, and, and honest talking in most cases in respect of, you know, I'm quite happy to say that, you know, share failures as well as the good, the good stuff.
Speaker B:And I think when you're doing a sort of groundbreaking or a new next generation type step into the process, you know, you have to really sort of take that approach because, you know, we have to, we have to have a fail fast mentality.
Speaker B:We have to, you know, there's not an endless pit of money to be thrown at these things and developments.
Speaker B:You've got to have a sort of cut off and you've got to know when to walk away.
Speaker B:And I think that sort of comes with a, with a bit of that comes with experience.
Speaker B:I mean, I've done the same in the younger period of life of entrepreneurialism, of you know, thinking you've got something that's going to be a, you know, a groundbreaker and it never is.
Speaker B:And you, you end up losing a lot of money trying to make it there.
Speaker B:But I think as you get older, you learn to naturally fail faster and cut your losses and walk away and move on to the next thing.
Speaker B:What I would suggest is don't stop, you know, you know, there's, there's a lot of people who stop and after failure, after not succeeding and don't carry on, but I think it's a good, especially when you're going overseas and looking at businesses, you know, the reflection of why it didn't work is obviously as important as possibly it will then you can apply that to another market or another opportunity that comes up and but yeah, generally I think from my side I would say, you know, you need to make yourself, I'd say, you know, accessible.
Speaker B:You need to make yourself, you know, available on social media.
Speaker B:Like I said, we didn't have social media 25 years ago when I started but I still was able to make myself a sort of key person of influence in the area, you know, that I was in, in, in the local.
Speaker B:So you know, and again that's through, you know, talking at events or speaking on, you know, opportunities for moderating or you know, etc, you know, wherever you can get yourself in front of, you know, area to talk about your business, your successes and what you do and what you are doing.
Speaker B:Even if it is selling valves, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's the only way you're going to get your valves above somebody else's is by making sure that, you know, the name that they're hearing is your valves and not somebody else's valves.
Speaker B:So you know, it doesn't have to be groundbreaking.
Speaker B:It can be just there, you know, we've got, there's, you know, the AI data centers, all sorts of things are being, you know, the talk of the town at the moment in the geothermal space being the place that you know, we, we need baseload energy.
Speaker B:But again, you know, it's, it's.
Speaker B:That is a very sort of complex and restrictive market at the moment.
Speaker B:You know, it's a huge potential but you know, not being played out because of the, you know, billions needed to develop them.
Speaker B:And you know, so.
Speaker A:Makes sense I suppose like you said and certainly bit that like there was the idea of kind of learn, learning from your failings.
Speaker A:Everyone does fail at some point or somewhere.
Speaker A:Always makes a mistake, gets something wrong.
Speaker A:So it's learning from them and, and embracing them I suppose is kind of as much as, as anything I want to kind of an open question now I suppose just to try and wrap it all up there.
Speaker A:Carl is.
Speaker A:And I know there could be plenty of things that you like to, to mention, but what would you say, is there any kind of other tips or messages that you'd get across to anyone or any business who, who is trying to grow that international network and get themselves seen in, in other foreign markets?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean you've got to believe in, you got to do your homework, you know, you've got to understand the market, you've got to do your homework, you've got to understand, you know, you could, like I said, it could be a really competitive saturated market.
Speaker B:But doesn't mean to say you can't get into it.
Speaker B:You've just got to make sure that the way you approach it and how you get into it is, is done on the basis of actually knowing what you're going into and what you're going to be prepared to face and also making sure you got a budget because you know, you need to, you need to plan this.
Speaker B:Like I said, I mean, you know, a five to seven year type business plan strategy, looking at some sort of exit after seven years is the ideal approach with you know, looking to commercialize within, you know, the first two years.
Speaker B:It's very rare that any company will go into an overseas territory and be, you know, generating revenue commercially within, you know, under, under two years.
Speaker B:It's if, if it happens through selling products and existing products in there, that's okay, that can happen.
Speaker B:But again, if it's doing it on the basis of just selling a few products that could be cut off tomorrow and you in a country, moving into a country then with no sales.
Speaker B:So, and I've seen that happen as well.
Speaker B:People making, you know, decisions off the back of having one contract and think that that's it, they're going to, you know, kill everything.
Speaker B:And it doesn't happen like that.
Speaker B:It's really, you know, these, a lot of these places are looking for, you know, technical solutions.
Speaker B:They're looking for technical services or support and you know, they're very quick to, once they identify what that is and how they're doing, they're very quick to build around that and local companies will be being pushed to, you know, overtake that market.
Speaker B:So, and I've seen that in many cases that, you know, they, so that's why I say you got to have this sort of five to seven years expectations and an exit strategy based on what if, you know, what if our partner or what if the license expires, decides to go in competition with us or wants to buy us out or wants to push it out of the market.
Speaker B:Because all of these things generally happen.
Speaker B:And, but I think that's, you know, you've got to look at these as short term ventures with a potential to, you know, build a long term business.
Speaker B:But you know, look at the opportunity as a, is a short sort of, when I say short, like I said, you know, five to seven year type focus target to break that market and to get in there and it might then Grow longer.
Speaker B:You know, I have some successful partnerships stuff I've done previously with petrofac and Wood and various companies like that which you know, have built in, grown into quite successful localized businesses.
Speaker B:But then they weren't the same business they started out as.
Speaker B:You know, they're a bit, you know, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I suppose it's that always thing, isn't it, what I say, kind of plan for the worst, hope for the best.
Speaker A:But at least if it is a five, seven year job, if that's kind of the full cycle, then at least that's what you've, what you've prepared for and planned for.
Speaker B:Yeah, underfunding and under financing the expectations is one that I, you know, people, you know, allocating, you know, budgets to a 12 month, you know, business cases, you know, you can read into C as flaws before you even start because it takes you six months to set a company up and you know, and all these sorts of things.
Speaker B:So it's like, you know, it's not realistic to think, you know, go in there and win a load of contracts within 12 months and you know, so I think again it takes planning and I would suggest, you know, working with local partners or having at least a local, you know, lead influencer on the ground who base or has somebody in that has a sort of name in the market and is well known, can open doors and get to the right people that are needed if, if they're there because they're not always there.
Speaker B:If you're taking a new product then you might not have that knowledge base in the, in the region.
Speaker B:So you know, then you, you are on a bit of a backfire foot and you, you know, a lot of it then is sort of, you know, just again, just trying to get yourself in front of the right people.
Speaker B:And that's normally done through speaking at events, you know, presentation at events and talking and networking events and stuff like that.
Speaker A:So I, from my point of view that's probably kind of a perfect piece of insight and advice to, to end it on.
Speaker A:I know kind of with that half hour there is, is absolutely flown by and I know kind of we just chipped away at the surface there, Carl.
Speaker A:So what I would say if anyone wants to hear any more from Carl or find out more about his experience or the work he's currently doing in geothermal, then we'll put a link to your LinkedIn page and website and stuff in, in the bio as well.
Speaker A:So people, by all means please, I'm sure Carl will not mind if you, if you have a look and and kind of reach out on anything that that you may have.
Speaker A:But last thing for me to say is thank you very much, Carl, for joining me this morning.
Speaker A:I hope everyone's kind of found that as useful as I have in terms of getting a bit more of an understanding of what it actually takes to be successful in these markets and build that reputation.
Speaker A:If you want to hear more of Horizon podcast, then by all means have a look on all your usual podcast software providers, whether that's Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube and the likes.
Speaker A:And also if you want to hear more about international trade and from Horizon in general, then by all means you can follow the link in the bio to sign up for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker A:But thank you very much, Carl.
Speaker A:Been a pleasure.
Speaker A:Thank you very much for everyone for listening.
Speaker A:I hope to see you again on a podcast soon.
Speaker A:Goodbye.
