Trading with America: David Smallman
EP 04 | Trading with America
How do you go about trading with the U.S.?
In this episode, host Ben Bradford is joined by David Smallman, the Global Advisor at Delaware Prosperity Partnership, to approach one of the most talked about topics of 2025.
How to trade with America?
David breaks down:
- How to import goods into the U.S.
- How inward investment works in the U.S.
- The benefits of incorporating your business in Delaware
- How to market and enter the U.S. market
Packed with practical insights and thought-provoking ideas, this episode delivers valuable takeaways on making the U.S. a success.
Resources:
David’s Article in issue 10 (Winter ‘24/’25): https://www.flipsnack.com/5DDC5688B7A/horizon-winter-24-25/full-view.html?p=34
Listen Here: https://the-horizon-podcast.captivate.fm
Watch Here: https://youtu.be/lUOzszTKTQU
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6YNQKalOt6g807RJFRhNA9?si=959b722c7cfa4039
Listen on Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/95d9193a-b7c7-4051-bf86-ec8dbc8cb56d/the-horizon-podcast
Horizon Magazine
Ben
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-bradford-73701a15a/
David
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidfsmallman/
Delaware Prosperity Partnership
https://www.linkedin.com/company/delaware-prosperity-partnership/
Horizon Social Media
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Transcript
Hello, I'm Ben, and welcome to the latest edition of the Horizon podcast.
Speaker A:Today we'll be considering the big questions of how to trade with the US and how best to enter the US Market.
Speaker A:To help me tackle these questions, I'm delighted to be joined by David Smallman from the Delaware Prosperity Partnership.
Speaker A:So without further ado, let's jump straight into it.
Speaker A:Enjoy the show.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome.
Speaker A:And firstly, I must apologize because that cold that was affecting me during our last podcast is still with me at the moment.
Speaker A:But at least it just means that I will keep quiet as much as possible and let my guest, David do most the talking, which is absolutely perfect for all you guys, because I couldn't think of a better person to be talking about the US and the US Market than David, who I hope doesn't mind me saying, over what's five decades.
Speaker A:Over five decades.
Speaker A:Now, David's worked across 60 countries, five continents, and on the US specifically, I think it's six different states in total, including Delaware.
Speaker A:Obviously, you now work with the Delaware Prosperity Partnership as their global advisor.
Speaker A:So thank you very much for joining me today, David.
Speaker B:Thank you very much, Ben, for inviting me.
Speaker B:It's always a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker B:I'm sorry you got such a lousy cold.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:That just means I'm putting more of the weight on yourself.
Speaker B:Hey, not too worried.
Speaker A:Now, I'm not going to put you on the spot and try and talk about, you know, the latest tariffs and what's going on.
Speaker A:A, that's not fair, and B, it means that probably a week after we put this podcast out, it'd be outdated and everything had changed again.
Speaker A:But since I first met you and long before the current trade conversation and tariffs and trade wars, you've always been an advocate about kind of smart shipping to the US and how businesses need to think differently and how they can impact, I suppose, the tariffs that they're paying and the processes by simply considering things like how or whether they import finished product or not.
Speaker A:Simple kind of pointers like that.
Speaker A:So could you just give us a bit more detail on ways that you think a business can really be smart about when they're shipping to the US and what steps they can take?
Speaker B:I think in many ways, Ben, you've answered your own question clearly.
Speaker B:A lot of companies go into the whole idea of exporting to anywhere in the world, let alone the United States, thinking that their finished goods need to be the ship's goods.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But as with most countries, if you ship something into the United States, which is not a finished goods.
Speaker B:Your tariffs or the taxes, import duties that you pay will be less because you have to assemble the finished product in the country where you're marketing it to.
Speaker B:And that's exactly the same in the United States.
Speaker B:If you're.
Speaker B:Let me try and give it.
Speaker B:To give you a small example, a couple of years ago we had a company based in the United Kingdom that was looking to manufacture a new style of domestic heating product.
Speaker B:Put the product together, it passed all its tests, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker B:And they were on the cusp of simply importing into the US until somebody pointed out to them, wonder who that might have been.
Speaker B:Somebody pointed out to them, actually, you know what, if you put this, if you took this apart, put it into knockdown form and by the way, where are you getting all your parts from?
Speaker B:Was my next question.
Speaker B:And he said, well, we get this piece from Poland and we get this piece from here and we get this piece from here and then the other bits come from here.
Speaker B:And I said, well, who makes the metal box?
Speaker B:Or we do, okay?
Speaker B:I said, well, if you took the parts from Poland and from the other places and the IP and the main core piece that you've got of your product, which is manufactured in East Anglia and shipped it into the US and had the tin box made in the US and the wiring in the switch gear, your import duties will be phenomenally less and therefore your profit margin will be considerably higher.
Speaker B:And that's just a simple example of thinking carefully about what your how you're going to go about importing or exporting rather something into United States market.
Speaker B:And that's as I said earlier, that's very true.
Speaker B:In virtually all the other markets I've ever worked in in the world, if there's imported duties, think about which bits of your product could be unfinished but could be finished locally.
Speaker B:Apart from anything else, it gives you a reason to set up your organization in the host country and have a base there, which is always a good idea because it gives you subsidiary businesses within your own organization.
Speaker A:And I think that point about opening a base is one that at the moment, I think from talking to businesses ourselves as well, they're taking more seriously or more serious option when they're thinking about America.
Speaker A:And that's where people like yourselves, I suppose a Delaware Prosperity Partnership, that's where you guys can come in and help people to do that.
Speaker A:So I suppose, can you explain a bit more about your role and how you can help people to do that?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:My role within dpp, Delaware Prosperity Partnership is sort of, is to be a liaison or a conduit for businesses here and in Europe.
Speaker B:We have another global advisor who works in Europe as well, Michael MacArthur, within.
Speaker B:Sorry, between the UK Europe and the great state of Delaware.
Speaker B:The great thing about Delaware is because of its size, it can offer a very tailored, if you like, ecosystem to use the buzzword for, particularly for innovation.
Speaker B:So if you've got an innovative product, we really do want to hear from you.
Speaker B:And that's back to this point about you don't have to take all of the, you don't have to take the completed piece in, you can take in parts of it and you can manufacture parts of it in Delaware.
Speaker B:I would suggest to you from experience, it's probably the most business friendly environment in the United States.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's got a really world class corporate structure, infrastructure and it's really well known for how easy it is to incorporate in the state.
Speaker B:It's very simple, it's very straightforward.
Speaker B:And there are.
Speaker B:Now we have.
Speaker B:The population of Delaware is just over a million.
Speaker B:I think it's 1.1 million, 1.2 million.
Speaker B:But we have 1.9 million companies that have their legal home in Delaware.
Speaker B:So nearly twice the number of people there are in Delaware.
Speaker B:There's nearly twice the number of companies.
Speaker B:Just under 69% of Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware worldwide.
Speaker B: And at the last count in: Speaker B:It's a, it's a state which understands.
Speaker A:Yes, I, I have, I've always been amazed when we've talked before about, like you said, the size of Delaware, but how it really does like genuinely punch above its weight, I suppose, in terms of comparing the size of it and the actual population to what it does on a business landscape.
Speaker A:Like with kind of some of the figures you're explaining there from outside.
Speaker A:If you were given a map and you said point to which state you think these figures represent, you wouldn't.
Speaker B:Delaware.
Speaker A:You wouldn't point to Delaware.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:But if you look at it from a, if you look at a map of the east coast of the United States, you can see why it works.
Speaker B:First of all, this is the first state in the Union.
Speaker B:This is the first state that was, you know, became a state in the United States.
Speaker B:And it's halfway between New York and Washington.
Speaker B:It's on the Delaware River.
Speaker B:It's on the river.
Speaker B:It's on the coast.
Speaker B:It's in perfect.
Speaker B:It's in that perfect position, it's halfway between the financial powerhouse of New York and the political powerhouse of Washington.
Speaker B:What more could you want?
Speaker A:And I suppose for Europe as well, it's on the east coast of time zone wise and travel wise.
Speaker B:It's The Philadelphia airport's 20 minutes from our office in Wilmington.
Speaker B:Literally 20 minutes.
Speaker B:When I fly into Philadelphia, which I usually do through Dublin for reasons I will go into if you're interested.
Speaker B:But I fly into Philadelphia, I arrive as a domestic passenger in Philadelphia and within 40 minutes of the plane, me exiting the plane, I can be in the office in Wilmington within 30 minutes.
Speaker A:Even in, even in the UK there's, you would struggle to find many places where actually within 40 minutes you could get out of the airport.
Speaker B:When I come back to here, where I live on the south coast, I come through Heathrow.
Speaker B:It takes me 40 minutes to get out of Heathrow.
Speaker A:And that's if there's no fire.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:That's providing, isn't it?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:But yeah, I suppose that explains well, kind of why Delaware is a great state for businesses to look at.
Speaker A:And you mentioned especially there kind of the innovation hubs and what's going on in Delaware.
Speaker A:How do you fit in then as the prosperity partnership to help people make that step of kind of doing the market research and making Delaware kind of a reality.
Speaker A:Suppose.
Speaker B:The team in Delaware has a number of specialists within the team.
Speaker B:So innovation is one.
Speaker B:We have marketing people, we have a really, really good research team and all of those facilities are available to a prospective investor in Delaware.
Speaker B:We provide something else which is not unique but it's is often is we, we, we often.
Speaker B:Which I think is quite a good idea is if you're thinking of coming to the United States, we are prepared to provide you with 6 months free desk space in our building for you to hot desk and for you to then explore your market.
Speaker A:That's brilliant.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And whilst, and whilst pointing that out, it's in our building that puts you in the same building as the research department, puts you in the same building as the innovation people, put you in the same building as the marketing folks.
Speaker B:So if you've got questions almost on a daily basis that you want answers to for helping your research, et cetera, those people are available to you in the same building.
Speaker A:You can't get closer than that.
Speaker B:Can't get.
Speaker B:You can't get closer than that.
Speaker B:Quite rightly, Ben.
Speaker B:And so that really does help people to focus on how they're going to go about doing it.
Speaker B:We're not going to, we're not going to make the appointments for you, but we might, we'll get, you know, we'll make some suggestions about who are the people you need to go and talk to in some of those cases.
Speaker B:But if they're local, it might make personal introductions.
Speaker B:But you can then make your own mind up about whether you want to be in the United States in the first place.
Speaker B:And if you do, then we'd obviously like you to register in Delaware.
Speaker B:It's not a given.
Speaker B:You don't have to, but we would like you to and then branch out from there.
Speaker B:Whilst on that subject, then, if I might just for a second.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If you are coming to United States and you go, but David, we've got a product which we want to sell in four different states.
Speaker B:We know we've got a market in four different states.
Speaker B:Why should we incorporate in Delaware?
Speaker B:Well, you should incorporate in Delaware because it gives you a.
Speaker B:Through our Chancery court system.
Speaker B:It gives you, it's internationally respected, it's trusted, and therefore it tends to, I hate to use the word surpass because it's a bit unfair in some of the other states, but it definitely does surpass some of the business law courts in other parts of the United States.
Speaker B:And in fact, Delaware case law is frequently cited by courts other than their own in jurisdictions throughout the US and internationally.
Speaker B:I've actually, I mean, I've heard it being quoted in our court here because it's, it's the gold standard.
Speaker B:Some would say it's the gold stand.
Speaker B:So even if you're, if, even if you're, let me give you an example.
Speaker B:Furniture manufacturer in the United Kingdom who provides timber and veneered finishes, primarily in the automotive market, but also to interior designers.
Speaker B:Big business in California, big business on the west coast in general, big business in Florida and clearly in the upmarket parts of New York for interior design, et cetera.
Speaker B:Company registered in Delaware to do for its corporate headquarters with subsidiaries in those four states because it works better and it's easier to control.
Speaker B:And you still need to understand that in many ways the United States is 50 different countries.
Speaker B:So the business laws, the taxation laws, all of those things are all tend to be a little different in each of the states.
Speaker B:So therefore it makes sense to have a subsidiary if you're going to do a lot of business in California, you have a Delaware corporation with a subsidiary in California.
Speaker A:But as a business, then you can look at it as right, doing your market research in terms of where my potential customers are.
Speaker A:But then You've got the other side of it, as that's not necessarily the best place for me to register my business.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:And I suppose what you're saying there is, regardless of where those customers are, Delaware is always going to be up there as one of the best states when it comes to options for registering.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I mean, clearly, with 1.9 million registered businesses, right.
Speaker B:We haven't got 1.9 million businesses operating in Delaware, you know, employing 20,000 people.
Speaker B:Time.
Speaker B:Because clearly the state wouldn't only have 1.2 million people living in it.
Speaker B:It's, you know, the maths tell you that.
Speaker B:So clearly.
Speaker B:No, it is, it's.
Speaker B:Many companies come to United States, register their corporation in Delaware and never actually do anything other than run their corporate entity from Delaware because they might be in a logging business.
Speaker B:Well, we don't have too many forests in Delaware, so why would you operate in Delaware?
Speaker A:I've always been, from when we've spoken for, I suppose, interested and a little bit kind of amazed about how in America seems to be a better level of appreciation for the support businesses need to receive for that inward investment, for getting people in, you know, it's not something that business that, whether it's government or other departments, whoever, isn't necessarily a key priority or done particularly well, I would say, in the rest of the world.
Speaker A:And you've mentioned kind of some of the benefits that are on offer and can be offered for yourselves at the dpp.
Speaker A:Who else would you say when a business is doing their market research and thinking of their contacts as well as yourself or kind of an alternative in a different state, who else should be the type of organizations and people that are towards the top of a company's contact list.
Speaker B:Can I just wind back a fraction?
Speaker A:As far as you want, David, go?
Speaker B:Yeah, just wind back.
Speaker B:Just your, your earlier point is there ver the America America is built on entrepreneurship.
Speaker B:It's built on, from a business point of view, it's built on a can do attitude.
Speaker B:Nothing is impossible.
Speaker B:You can be anybody you want to be, do anything you want to be.
Speaker B:And because of that, communities.
Speaker B:And remember that communities in the particularly in the US are far more spread out.
Speaker B:So communities are keen to provide facilities and support to bring people into their community, to bring employment into their city or into their town.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so the chambers of commerce, economic development groups like DPP tend to be a little bit more proactive than they can be in the United Kingdom.
Speaker B:The Chamber of commerce network in the United States is not the same as it is in Europe.
Speaker B:Where in many countries and in the Middle east, where in many countries you can't operate a business, you can't start a business where without being registered with a chamber of commerce.
Speaker B:So it's like the UK system, it's a voluntary thing.
Speaker B:But chambers tend to have.
Speaker B:Chambers tend to have quite a lot of influence in the community that they perhaps don't have here in the United Kingdom.
Speaker B:And part of that is because you have the division of responsibility in the US between federal and state and then local level and people, the way the political structure works in the us, there is more power, more influence at local level than there is in the United Kingdom.
Speaker B:That's not to denigrate anything that local councils and metropolitan areas do.
Speaker B:I'm sure Mr.
Speaker B:Berman will be all over me like a wet blanket for saying that.
Speaker B:But it's true that in the US it's a lot easier to get something done at a local level.
Speaker B:In our own.
Speaker B:I'm singing our own song a little bit.
Speaker B:Della, the access to people in Delaware who you need to talk to, even up to governor level or even the federal delegation level, relatively easy.
Speaker B:Relatively easy.
Speaker B:If you come to me as a prospective investor in Delaware with 500 job, 500 people, potential facility, and you say, I need to talk to the governor's office, I will guarantee you you will talk to the governor's office.
Speaker B:I'm not suggesting you, I'm not suggesting that Matt will meet you in person.
Speaker B:He might do, but you will certainly get a meeting with the governor's office if you, if that's what you.
Speaker B:If that's part of your, part of your requirements, because that's part of your due diligence.
Speaker A:And like I said, if you hadn't said that, then that's not something I don't think, especially here in the uk, people would automatically expect.
Speaker A:So they wouldn't.
Speaker A:It's not something that they would request or factor in when they're trying to do their research or part of their due diligence, because they probably think that it's going to be an automatic.
Speaker A:An automatic no, but.
Speaker B:And I have worked in other states where some of the smaller states where that's also true.
Speaker B:You know, it is not, but it's not.
Speaker B:If you need to talk to people because they can be an influencer of why you might make a significant investment in that area, people will want to talk to you.
Speaker A:They'll find the time.
Speaker B:They'll find the time.
Speaker B:Using a slightly different analogy, if I might, in America, people return their phone calls if, if, if I ring somebody, yeah, and they're not available, they will return my call.
Speaker B:In this country, that's not always the case.
Speaker B:You have gatekeepers who have no intention of letting you talk to their boss, none, for whatever reason.
Speaker A:So how would.
Speaker A:You've mentioned a couple of businesses there and you know, I've kind of spoken to a few who have tried to approach America, some more successfully than others, some with more of a plan, some with a bit more of kind of a scattergun approach.
Speaker A:How would you set out, I suppose what were the key parts of, of market research?
Speaker A:How can a business break down the massive American?
Speaker A:Like you said, you already treat it like 50 countries rather than one, one big country.
Speaker A:But how would you recommend a business goes about conducting their research in this.
Speaker B:Modern day and age, which is completely different from where I started out, trust me, in this modern day and age, with search engines and Google and all of those other wonderful, wonderful facilities, you can, you can get an awful lot of information.
Speaker B:You can research an awful lot of information.
Speaker B:And that information, you can, using the funnel approach, you can funnel it down until you've got, you've distilled it to a.
Speaker B:Okay, now I understand where my market's probably likely to be, I understand what the costs of entry are likely to be, probably with, you know, roughly, etc.
Speaker B:Etc.
Speaker B:And then I think, as you've heard me say before, now think carefully about your budget.
Speaker B:Make sure that if you're going to do this, you have sufficient funds to be able to do it.
Speaker B:It's not something you can do on a wing and a prayer.
Speaker B:Having set aside the budget, there is no substitute, even in this day and age, for not getting on the airplane.
Speaker B:If you don't like airplanes, get on a boat.
Speaker B:But there is no substitute for actually going, being on the ground and talking to people locally.
Speaker B:You can talk on teams and facetime as much as you like.
Speaker B:It doesn't give you that instant feeling of understanding somebody else's point of view and understanding what they're trying to tell you.
Speaker B:And it doesn't give you the social interaction which is all part of deciding whether you want to be there or not.
Speaker B:And that's true not just United States, it's true of anywhere in the world.
Speaker B:Don't try and go and setting up your business in Dubai without going to Dubai.
Speaker B:You wouldn't dream of it, so don't try doing it in the US and one word of warning, there are dozens and dozens of people on the Internet who will tell you that they can act as your Agent in the US Be very, very careful.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Very careful.
Speaker B:There are certain laws in certain states in the United States where agents have the opportunity to be treated rather like employees.
Speaker B:So if you are going to have an agent, make absolutely darn sure it's the right person, and you can only make sure that's the right person then by meeting them and then having met them, talk about a contract and on.
Speaker A:The contract bit and talking about the employment law.
Speaker A:I know it's something that you've talked about before, but worth saying again from your perspective point of view.
Speaker A:The most important initial hires that you make when you go to the US are.
Speaker A:I'm right.
Speaker A:Insane.
Speaker A:Accountant and a local lawyer.
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker B:Almost like.
Speaker B:I mean, I can remember when I first started out in business in my late teens, early 20s, I worked for somebody who wonderful man called Tom Pierce, who'd been a hurricane pilot in the Second World War.
Speaker B:Lovely, lovely.
Speaker B:Chapman was a real mentor to me.
Speaker B:And I can remember him saying to me, and I first went to work with him, there are three things in life, in your business life, you need.
Speaker B:You need a good bank manager where there aren't many bank managers left in the world.
Speaker A:I accept.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You need a good accountant and you need a good lawyer.
Speaker B:If you've got those three, then you can make some progress.
Speaker B:And it's exactly the same with the business.
Speaker B:Every business needs legal advice, local legal advice.
Speaker B:That's not to say, I mean, there are lots of, in fact, in the Northeast, there are a number of very, very good legal practices which have offices in the United States and.
Speaker B:Prof.
Speaker B:For local advice.
Speaker B:Local legal advice in the US Very well.
Speaker B:And more importantly, have offices state by state because the law changes state by state.
Speaker B:And the other thing is to make sure that you've got an accountant who understands how you're structured in the UK and then how you want to be structured in the United States.
Speaker B:Very important.
Speaker B:More important than people sometimes think it is.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's one of those things people go, you know, a CEO of a small SME in this country will tend to take the view.
Speaker B:Oh, that's okay.
Speaker B:I'll sort that out later.
Speaker B:Yeah, sort it out right up front.
Speaker A:Yeah, you try and like run first and yeah, it's about.
Speaker A:They might be on the list, but like you said, it's, it's further down the list of priorities.
Speaker B:Priority, do your research, but get on the airplane.
Speaker B:And when you get off at the other end, make sure somebody introduces you to a good accountant, a good lawyer.
Speaker A:Which I suppose feeds nicely back to kind of you, the dpp, what you offer.
Speaker A:You've got that, as you mentioned, you've got that research team, you've got that office space.
Speaker A:And with the office space, then you've got the ability to say, here's my American business card.
Speaker A:When you are meeting someone face to face, here's my American business card.
Speaker A:Here is my American address, phone number, whatever.
Speaker A:And it just gives you that bit of, I suppose, legit almost kind of.
Speaker B:Which one of the.
Speaker A:How gives you the local touch.
Speaker B:Give the local touch.
Speaker B:And that's important.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's one that otherwise you couldn't get from just sitting behind your desk and Newcastle, Liverpool, London, wherever.
Speaker B:No, absolutely not.
Speaker B:Absolutely not.
Speaker A:So suppose.
Speaker A:Last thing for.
Speaker A:For me to kind of touch on and put you on the.
Speaker A:The spot, David, would be we'll obviously include the contact details in, in the bio for, for the, for the podcast.
Speaker A:But a.
Speaker A:What's the best way for people to get in touch with yourselves?
Speaker A:And secondly, is there any last kind of pearl of wisdom almost or last touch that you think people should leave with?
Speaker B:The contact details, as you say, will be readily available?
Speaker B:Please don't hesitate to reach out to me by email or by telephone, preferably by email.
Speaker B:I would prefer it.
Speaker B:But you have telephone numbers there as well.
Speaker B:I don't know about pearls of wisdom.
Speaker B:That sounds very pompous.
Speaker B:I think the thing I would say is something which you haven't actually perhaps touched on today is United States is the world's largest free democracy.
Speaker B:Marketplace in the world is 380 million people.
Speaker B:If to coin an old phrase, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.
Speaker B:It's a diverse geographically and culturally, a very diverse country.
Speaker B:What you see on Hollywood movies is not America.
Speaker B:It's not America.
Speaker B:I know it's not America.
Speaker B:It's not the America of small cities and great.
Speaker B:Some really great people, some great different cultural differences, some amazing food.
Speaker B:If you've had the privilege, as I have, of living and working in New Orleans, there's some superb veggies of wheat.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:If your business has an opportunity.
Speaker B:Let's go back a bit.
Speaker B:If your business has outgrown your UK marketplace, if your business has a product which you can prove to yourself as a marketplace in the United States, just remember, your marketplace here in this country is 65 million people.
Speaker B:Your marketplace in the United States is 360 million people.
Speaker B:It's big and it's quite good fun.
Speaker A:But like you said, just because we've all seen it on the telly and our favorite TV shows.
Speaker A:And just cause it's not all that we share some of the same food and the same language does not mean that it's, it's all, it's all the same.
Speaker A:And you can kind of dodge or skip any of the research steps.
Speaker B:You can't.
Speaker B:You have to do it.
Speaker B:You have to do research and you and, and in order to.
Speaker B:I'm repeating myself.
Speaker B:But in order for you to know whether you really want to do it, you gotta go.
Speaker A:I think that's, that's the perfect I suppose message and point to end on.
Speaker A:So as I mentioned, you'll find David and the team's contact details.
Speaker A:You'll find them in the bio and if you also want to read any more from David, then we'll also put the link in for the article they produced for Horizon magazine as well.
Speaker A:So last thing from me is thank you very much, David.
Speaker B:It's a pleasure.
Speaker A:And thank you to all of you for watching listening as well.
Speaker A:Remember you can subscribe to make sure you receive all the latest editions of the magazine podcast and the latest international trade news.
Speaker A:But thanks again David and goodbye everyone.
Speaker B:Thank you.
